Author Topic: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014  (Read 3091 times)

Maribo

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2014, 08:28:30 pm »
Thanks again, GSP; I have one ordered.  Should I advance the timing as you described earlier, in addition to the Brit map mentioned above?

GSP

  • Adventurer
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2014, 11:59:01 am »
no more that 3 degrees on 93 octane or it will ping

Maribo

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2014, 12:27:47 pm »
Cool, I plan to copy the fuel map and the second ignition map you posted.  While waiting for my PC 5 to arrive, could you elaborate on the relationship between octane and spark advance?  Also, I could not find any maps on the powercommander.com web-site for the 690 Duke past 2011.  Where did you get the ones you mentioned?
Best,
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 01:49:19 pm by Maribo »

GSP

  • Adventurer
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile

Maribo

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2014, 06:06:23 pm »
Thanks a lot, GSP.  One more question just occurred to me.  I had the dealer re-map my ECU to the EU maps.  I didn't notice any difference in performance or running temperature.  I wonder how different they are than the original US maps.  But since we are piggy-backing off whatever is in the ECU, it could make a difference.  Did your bike run any cooler with these mods so far?

GSP

  • Adventurer
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2014, 06:11:35 pm »
with PC5 it dont matter what the dealer loaded, the OEM 02 sensor will no longer have any control,,, significantly cooler and very noticeable at idle:

Here is my Autotuned fuel map, use it, however it is for a slip-on and modified air box:

www.finitesite.com/partong/KTMEnduroAutoTune1Aug2014a.pvm
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 06:14:08 pm by GSP »

dasklein

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2014, 07:59:29 pm »
Thanks Again GSP. I've been waiting for a good FI solution!

Installed my PC5 over the weekend  way smoother mapping and slightly cooler temps (so lean from the factory!). I still may be slightly on the lean side (open air filter and exhaust mods). The extra timing also makes mid range awesome. Bike pulls very well through the full RPM range.

Hope to get it on the DYNO soon, and interest to see how auto tune shapes up.

GSP

  • Adventurer
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2014, 08:36:27 pm »
Cool, remember, since it is fly by wire, you must set the throttle position sensor while the engine is running in neutral, push the button to re-calibrate TPS in the PCV software and just very quickly pop the throttle to 100%, this is clearly evident when you compare 100% throttle voltage displayed by PCV, engine off vers engine on...

dasklein

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2014, 09:04:58 pm »
BTW, for those installing, the PC5 fits neatly under the OEM ECU cover.


dasklein

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2014, 09:45:03 pm »
Quote
could you elaborate on the relationship between octane and spark advance?
Higher octane fuels help prevent preignition, allowing for advancing timing and/or more compression. For us out in CA and AZ, the increased methanol requires a bit more fuel and slightly different timing or higher octane... So these bikes often run especially lean in CA!

Quote
I had the dealer re-map my ECU to the EU maps.
It's likely that the dealer installed the Akropovic map, not an EU map. The akro map was a good step on both my old SMC and my new ER, but still pretty conservative for opening exhaust and intake. My SMC ran waaay too lean with only the Akro map.

Quote
with PC5 it don't matter what the dealer loaded, the OEM 02 sensor will no longer have any control,,,
All due respect, this may not be entirely true... The PC's add more (or less) fuel + timing to whatever the base parameters (map) are. Since the PC's (in our case) don't directly interface with the ECU tables and we remove the O2, we're essentially turning a closed loop system into an open loop system (unless you run auto tune). I'm not 100% sure what the Akro map changes, but I'm guessing it changes the both the open and closed loop tables. Moreover, since we're "fooling" the ECU into thinking there is an O2, the bike's ECU goes into closed loop anyways once normal operating temp is reached.

Quote
Cool, remember, since it is fly by wire, you must set the throttle position sensor while the engine is running in neutral, push the button to re-calibrate TPS in the PCV software and just very quickly pop the throttle to 100%, this is clearly evident when you compare 100% throttle voltage displayed by PCV, engine off vers engine on...
Great reminder GSP. This is important for ALL FI installs, not just Fly By Wires. The TPS should always be calibrated. In my experience, idle is usually fine, but WOT is slightly off based on the base voltage... Usually TPS calibration does not need to be done with the engine running since it's just calibrating the voltage range.


GSP

  • Adventurer
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 02:09:05 pm »
On this 2014 KTM 690, if you calibrate TPS with engine off it will not be correct,,, try it,,,, engine off in neutral, engine off in gear and you will see a TPS voltage limit, like 3.xxx volts max in neutral and less in gear at WOT, fire it up watch the TPS output voltage when you twist the throttle and you will be surprised... power commander stipulates on paper that fly by wire motorcycles should be running for TPS calibration and is the case for this bike...

Maribo

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
PC5 Map with Stock Air Filter and Exhaust
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 05:39:53 pm »
My PC5 came today so I am ready to rock!  I would like to change things one at a time, starting with stock air and exhaust, but with PC5 added.  Then add my Wings muffler, changing the map accordingly.  Then, with a opened-up air box, and appropriate map.  My question is, what map to use with the stock air and exhaust.  I understand that the PC 5 comes with a map for stock air and exhaust already loaded, so I theoretically don't have to change anything for step 1.  However, I noticed that while the stock air and exhaust map (M18-016-001.pvm) adds fuel in a a lot of places, it also leans it in others.  Since the idea is to lessen the overly-lean factory settings, leaning it still further seems to be doing the opposite.  Should I change the negative values to zero, or are they there for a good reason?

Also, there are no ignition changes in the stock air and exhaust map.  Is it OK to advance the timing 2-3 degrees, or should I wait until I add the Wings exhaust?

And thanks for bringing up the subject of spark advance and octane relationship. I researched it and learned a lot!

Best,
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 06:24:00 pm by Maribo »

dasklein

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2014, 10:33:56 pm »
Quote
On this 2014 KTM 690, if you calibrate TPS with engine off it will not be correct,,, try it,,,, engine off in neutral, engine off in gear and you will see a TPS voltage limit, like 3.xxx volts max in neutral and less in gear at WOT, fire it up watch the TPS output voltage when you twist the throttle and you will be surprised... power commander stipulates on paper that fly by wire motorcycles should be running for TPS calibration and is the case for this bike...

Yeah, GSP. I noticed that. Very interesting. I wonder if the air is metered somehow (like MAF). These are new TB's, so I don't much about them. I also saw that they want you to only test on a dyno... Maybe they want the motor under load too.

dasklein

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2014, 11:13:10 pm »
Quote
My PC5 came today so I am ready to rock!  I would like to change things one at a time, starting with stock air and exhaust, but with PC5 added.  Then add my Wings muffler, changing the map accordingly.  Then, with a opened-up air box, and appropriate map.  My question is, what map to use with the stock air and exhaust.  I understand that the PC 5 comes with a map for stock air and exhaust already loaded, so I theoretically don't have to change anything for step 1.  However, I noticed that while the stock air and exhaust map (M18-016-001.pvm) adds fuel in a a lot of places, it also leans it in others.  Since the idea is to lessen the overly-lean factory settings, leaning it still further seems to be doing the opposite.  Should I change the negative values to zero, or are they there for a good reason?

Also, there are no ignition changes in the stock air and exhaust map.  Is it OK to advance the timing 2-3 degrees, or should I wait until I add the Wings exhaust?

And thanks for bringing up the subject of spark advance and octane relationship. I researched it and learned a lot!


Hey Maribo,
Yeah, that should be easy to do.

For stock intake/exhaust: For the most part, since the PC's are "piggy back" systems, you should be able to hook it all up and just zero out all the tables in on a base map. And if you leave the O2 hooked up, it's likely that the bike won't be any different than OEM. In essence, you're not changing anything from oem. (just make sure to terminate the O2 with the provided resistor plug if you alter tables, or it will fight the PC with FI duty cycle changes)

Based on how it looks, it's likely that dynojet's "stock map" is just a very small tune (like "chipping" a stock car). A little timing and fuel really does help. It's hard to say why they removed fuel in area. The Duke's do have different air boxes and exhaust systems, so maybe DJ noticed something on the dyno that day (off throttle condition, maybe?). Most companies test a few of the same machines and average out a conservative tune for of-the-shelf. As I think GSP mentioned, any experience with these bikes would probably make me want to take the negative values out of the "stock" PC map and see how she feels.

Adding timing will likely increase EGT's, so I'm not sure I'd go there with that huge heat box of an OEM cat/muffler. Who knows, maybe I'm being too conservative... There may be folks here with more 690/thumper experience that can chime in. You could always bump it 1-2, and check with an infrared temp gauge to see how much it increases. Or if it pings, you'll also know.

For the other mods, you may want to check out the auto tune. It won't get you the most HP, but that wideband O2 should certainly help the PC keep A/F in check. I think GSP's map is a great place to start. I made a few guesses and tweaks to it, but for the most part, the bike ran awesome during a 80-100mi ride last weekend. (btw, I only lost about 1-2mpg)

Personally, I'm excited to see what the 14's do on the Dyno. And in my experience being around tuners for a number of years, there is no magic map to download. There are way too many variables (temp, humidity, elevation, etc), and I've seen the same machine with basically the same mods react differently to tunes. You just can't beat the dyno to find where the limits are.

Hope that helps.

Maribo

  • Wanderer
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: New Slip On and PC5 on 2014
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2014, 04:11:58 pm »
I installed the PC5 this morning with the map it came with; that is, the one for stock muffler and air box.  I couldn't tell any difference in performance, or much in temperature.  This riding is put-putting around town - a lot of stop and go.  Then I loaded a version of the same map with the negative numbers changed to zeros.  Maybe a little lower running temperature.  Then I added the 3% fuel close to idle, so I now have GSP's original fuel map with no timing advance.  I think somewhat cooler running, maybe.  The fan doesn't come on as often at stoplights, but it still comes on at various times.  It is about 80 degrees F ambient temperature.

So now I have put the wings muffler on.  I am wondering if I still have to do the 15-minute idle.  Went for a ride, anyway: a bit more pull in the mid-range. Runs hotter, if anything.  Then I added 2 degrees spark advance according to GSP's first map.  I think it definitely is running hotter.  The fan comes on more, sometimes not even sitting at stop-lights.  Steady on the tenth notch out of 12 on the temperature gauge.  Does this make sense?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 06:21:02 pm by Maribo »